94 Civic Won't Start
#1
94 Civic Won't Start
Parked my '94 Honda Civic DX one night about three months ago, the next day it wouldn't start. It cranks like a trooper, but no signs of combustion, it just will not fire. Ran perfectly up to that point, no symptoms of any kind.
Pulled the plug wires off and checked the plugs against ground, there's spark in each one.
Can hear the gas pump back by the tank activate when the key is turned "ON", then the relay shuts it off after a few seconds normayyl.
Pulled the fuel line off the injector rail, when the key is turned "ON" gas spews out, so doesn't seem to be a clogged fuel filter.
the "Check engine" light does not stay on. But I found the ECM anyways, disconnected the connector and jumped the points per the Haynes manual procedure, there are no error code blinks.
Could not get the timing belt upper cover off to look at the belt, but looked inside the oil fill cap when the engine was cranking, the cam is turning so apparently the belt did not break. Could teeth have broken and the belt slipped? Seems unlikely, but I bought the car used and don't know if the belt had ever been changed per recommended maintenance.
Pulled the distributor cap off, the rotor turns just fine while cranking. The points in the distributor do not appear pitted or discolored, no carbon deposits, no apparent cracks in the cap. Sprayed the distributor from a water bottle while engine cranked (suggested by a Honda mechanic) did not hear any sounds of arcing.
The dash lights blink normally while the engine is cranking, does not appear to be an ignition problem (suggested by a Honda mechanic).
Took out the air filter- no effect. Sprayed starter fluid in the air intake- no effect.
I saw on 94civichatchback's Troubleshooting post that a coil problem might cause the "car won't start the next day and from then on". Would I still be getting spark at the pugs if the coil was bad? Could it just be a 'weak' spark and not enough voltage to ignite the gas? I had previously looked at the coil and was going to do the voltage tests as described in the Haynes manual, but the screws and connectors were very tight, I was afraid of breaking them (the car's 16 years old and goodness knows if they've ever been touched since the factory).
On the way home the night before this started, the gas gauge was on "E", stopped a mile away and got 5 gallons at a Giant Eagle GetGo. The next day the problem started. After all my testing proved inconclusive, thought maybe it was a batch of bad gas (I had thought it smelled funny during the injector rail test). Went back to the station twice to see if anyone else reported problems, they sain "no". Was going to drain the tank just in case, but there's no drain plug in my model, a mechanic told me there was no way to siphon throughthe gas fill tube, I'd have to remove the gas pump and go through that way, which is an ordeal for unsure results.
Was hoping to fix this myself, I could just have it towed to the shop but wanted an idea on what the problem might be (and the cost) in case it ended up requiring a fortune to fix, and be beyond my means.
Any help/ideas would be GREATLY appreciated.
Pulled the plug wires off and checked the plugs against ground, there's spark in each one.
Can hear the gas pump back by the tank activate when the key is turned "ON", then the relay shuts it off after a few seconds normayyl.
Pulled the fuel line off the injector rail, when the key is turned "ON" gas spews out, so doesn't seem to be a clogged fuel filter.
the "Check engine" light does not stay on. But I found the ECM anyways, disconnected the connector and jumped the points per the Haynes manual procedure, there are no error code blinks.
Could not get the timing belt upper cover off to look at the belt, but looked inside the oil fill cap when the engine was cranking, the cam is turning so apparently the belt did not break. Could teeth have broken and the belt slipped? Seems unlikely, but I bought the car used and don't know if the belt had ever been changed per recommended maintenance.
Pulled the distributor cap off, the rotor turns just fine while cranking. The points in the distributor do not appear pitted or discolored, no carbon deposits, no apparent cracks in the cap. Sprayed the distributor from a water bottle while engine cranked (suggested by a Honda mechanic) did not hear any sounds of arcing.
The dash lights blink normally while the engine is cranking, does not appear to be an ignition problem (suggested by a Honda mechanic).
Took out the air filter- no effect. Sprayed starter fluid in the air intake- no effect.
I saw on 94civichatchback's Troubleshooting post that a coil problem might cause the "car won't start the next day and from then on". Would I still be getting spark at the pugs if the coil was bad? Could it just be a 'weak' spark and not enough voltage to ignite the gas? I had previously looked at the coil and was going to do the voltage tests as described in the Haynes manual, but the screws and connectors were very tight, I was afraid of breaking them (the car's 16 years old and goodness knows if they've ever been touched since the factory).
On the way home the night before this started, the gas gauge was on "E", stopped a mile away and got 5 gallons at a Giant Eagle GetGo. The next day the problem started. After all my testing proved inconclusive, thought maybe it was a batch of bad gas (I had thought it smelled funny during the injector rail test). Went back to the station twice to see if anyone else reported problems, they sain "no". Was going to drain the tank just in case, but there's no drain plug in my model, a mechanic told me there was no way to siphon throughthe gas fill tube, I'd have to remove the gas pump and go through that way, which is an ordeal for unsure results.
Was hoping to fix this myself, I could just have it towed to the shop but wanted an idea on what the problem might be (and the cost) in case it ended up requiring a fortune to fix, and be beyond my means.
Any help/ideas would be GREATLY appreciated.
#2
Check the timing carefully. You have to take the valve cover off partway to get the upper timing belt cover off. Check that the plug wires are connected to the cap in proper order. Check that the rotor is secure on the distributor shaft. Once you've set the engine to TDC1 to check cam timing, confirm that the rotor points to wire #1 on the cap. When cranking with the cap off, hold a grounded test wire near the coil output. Sparks should jump 3/4 inch or so. If they're weak and yellow, replace coil. Do a compression test. The big 3 are fuel, spark, compression, all properly timed.
It'd be good to replace the gas. Civic engines don't tolerate stale/bad gas at all. The '94 should have a drain plug in the front corner of the tank. If it doesn't, it's no big deal to remove the fuel pump. Or you can disconnect the fuel return line under the hood (from the fuel pressure regulator back to the firewall), lead it into a gas can, and jump the main relay so the pump runs and empties the tank.
It'd be good to replace the gas. Civic engines don't tolerate stale/bad gas at all. The '94 should have a drain plug in the front corner of the tank. If it doesn't, it's no big deal to remove the fuel pump. Or you can disconnect the fuel return line under the hood (from the fuel pressure regulator back to the firewall), lead it into a gas can, and jump the main relay so the pump runs and empties the tank.
Last edited by mk378; 05-26-2010 at 11:23 AM.
#3
If spark at the plugs was either weak orange or deep blue, the coil is probably bad. If spark was bright white, the coil is fine.
The timing belt may have skipped a tooth or two. Here's what the mechanical timing should look like if it's fine:
The timing belt may have skipped a tooth or two. Here's what the mechanical timing should look like if it's fine:
#4
I do appreciate the suggestions. Took a while to check things out, after so long sitting in the garage the battery was dead, had to find a charger.
Checked the timing position, it appears when set to TDC that the rotor does point to the number one plug. Hopefully that means the timing belt hasn't slipped.
Did the coil checks per the Haynes manual, resistance from A to B terminals, and from from secondary winding terminal to terminal A were both within the specifications. It appears the coil is OK.
Then checked the ignition coil module. It was within spec, EXCEPT that voltage from black/yellow wire (middle terminal) to body ground was 5.6 volts, and is supposed to be battery voltage.
Went out and got a new battery the other day, as well as new rotor and distributor cap. Then I did the coil and ICM checks again. Everything is the same EXCEPT that on the ICM middle terminal, it's now zero volts, instead of 5.6. Pulled the spark plugs and checked against ground, now there's no spark at all where before I had seen spark.
Maybe the ICM was bad all along, the weak voltage was giving me spark but it was a weak one, and now that the middle terminal is showing zero, there's no spark at the plugs at all. The parts store has an ICM for $95, maybe I should go ahead and get it (and hope I can get the old one off).
Don't know if it's related or not, but previously I had heard the fuel pump go on with ignition key turned, and then the relay kicked it off. Now the fuel pump comes on about once every 20 key turns. I can't imagine it's on the same circuit as the ICM, maybe the pump or relay died after sitting so long.
Checked the timing position, it appears when set to TDC that the rotor does point to the number one plug. Hopefully that means the timing belt hasn't slipped.
Did the coil checks per the Haynes manual, resistance from A to B terminals, and from from secondary winding terminal to terminal A were both within the specifications. It appears the coil is OK.
Then checked the ignition coil module. It was within spec, EXCEPT that voltage from black/yellow wire (middle terminal) to body ground was 5.6 volts, and is supposed to be battery voltage.
Went out and got a new battery the other day, as well as new rotor and distributor cap. Then I did the coil and ICM checks again. Everything is the same EXCEPT that on the ICM middle terminal, it's now zero volts, instead of 5.6. Pulled the spark plugs and checked against ground, now there's no spark at all where before I had seen spark.
Maybe the ICM was bad all along, the weak voltage was giving me spark but it was a weak one, and now that the middle terminal is showing zero, there's no spark at the plugs at all. The parts store has an ICM for $95, maybe I should go ahead and get it (and hope I can get the old one off).
Don't know if it's related or not, but previously I had heard the fuel pump go on with ignition key turned, and then the relay kicked it off. Now the fuel pump comes on about once every 20 key turns. I can't imagine it's on the same circuit as the ICM, maybe the pump or relay died after sitting so long.
#5
The fuel pump needs to come on every time of course. That kind of suggests the ECU is not powering up. Check the ground wires on the thermostat housing and also the big ground wire from the battery to the engine (transmission) and frame. Pull the parking brake handle up and the BRAKE light on the dash should come on and stay on throughout trying to start-- both when you turn the key to on and when cranking.
Black and yellow wire needs to be solid battery voltage. It powers the coil.
Black and yellow wire needs to be solid battery voltage. It powers the coil.
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