Rwd
#21
09-16-2009 | 01:55 PM
Super Cereal Admin
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,081
From: Lexington, KY
Well there's your problem, you've been driving DSMs. Get a real car (*cough* STi (an STi, not STI. There's a difference) *cough*) and see how it does. Personally, I'd argue that the Evo felt squirrely due to the tires more than the suspension or drivetrain layout.
But correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't your original point that FWD applications are not used in professional racing? My counter-example has been Buddy Club from the start.
As far as high-level racing (Le Mans, American Le Mans, F1, etc), they use RWD because, quite simply, it is better for performance applications. That's not to say you can't have a competitive FWD at any professional level, just at that level, it would be a disadvantage (as well as their being rules and requirements that have to be met in any professional class of racing).
But correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't your original point that FWD applications are not used in professional racing? My counter-example has been Buddy Club from the start.
As far as high-level racing (Le Mans, American Le Mans, F1, etc), they use RWD because, quite simply, it is better for performance applications. That's not to say you can't have a competitive FWD at any professional level, just at that level, it would be a disadvantage (as well as their being rules and requirements that have to be met in any professional class of racing).
#22
09-16-2009 | 02:56 PM
Thread Starter
|
HCF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,059
From: Oklahoma City
I've been in a modded STi, but only on the street. I would LOVE to get on on the track and see what it could do. Also want to try a Skyline. I have heard good things about both. And while I'm at it, I want to get a bike on the track. I've always been afraid of doing this. As I am sure of myself on a bike, I'm unsure of myself in a raicng setting while on a bike. I have hit the kitty box a few times on 4 wheels, I don't want to do in on 2.
And you got me - I had the wording wrong. Sometimes I just put things down wrong. My weakenss. * kicks self in **** But my point was aimed for high end racing, simular to the Le Mans series. They have RWD and AWD, but keep away from the FWD.
I've seen many FWD classes run at the local track, but not anything at the high end level. The FWD dose have a few features that the RWD does not. Like penpoint turns. I can mash a FWD around the corner much harder than a RWD. Even if you pre-drift your RWD, your just going to spin and hurt your tires, and still do an epic slowdown. No good.
And you got me - I had the wording wrong. Sometimes I just put things down wrong. My weakenss. * kicks self in **** But my point was aimed for high end racing, simular to the Le Mans series. They have RWD and AWD, but keep away from the FWD.
I've seen many FWD classes run at the local track, but not anything at the high end level. The FWD dose have a few features that the RWD does not. Like penpoint turns. I can mash a FWD around the corner much harder than a RWD. Even if you pre-drift your RWD, your just going to spin and hurt your tires, and still do an epic slowdown. No good.
#23
09-16-2009 | 03:19 PM
Super Cereal Admin
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,081
From: Lexington, KY
Haha, yeah, I was kind of arguing semantics there 
Like I've implied, FWD does have its limitations. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that any FWD will be able to hang with something like this on an open track*:
Mmmmmm.... Audi R10 TDI. My favorite Le Mans Prototype car of all time
*okay, that's kind of unfair. Most cars wouldn't be able to touch it... after all, it did win the 24 Hours of Le Mans every year from its introduction until it was replaced
Like I've implied, FWD does have its limitations. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that any FWD will be able to hang with something like this on an open track*:
Mmmmmm.... Audi R10 TDI. My favorite Le Mans Prototype car of all time
*okay, that's kind of unfair. Most cars wouldn't be able to touch it... after all, it did win the 24 Hours of Le Mans every year from its introduction until it was replaced
Last edited by reaper2022; 09-16-2009 at 03:23 PM.
#24
09-16-2009 | 04:05 PM
Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,802
It bothers me when people say FWD is much lower in performance than RWD/AWD. Usually the ones who say this have little to no experience driving ALL platforms in both street and track conditions, stock and modified. To me, they are all equal.
BUT, a FWD Can not setup for a hard corner by a slight drift. This is why you don't see FWD cars racing professionally<full track, not quarter mile>.
Stock vs. stock, you would probably have a better chance setting up a flick entering a corner in a RWD car BUT, it'll be difficult and chances are you'll over do it losing time and grip. All RWD and FWD cars from factory are designed to under-steer for safety reason so it is difficult to get a slight flick just right to enter a corner and power out. Now modified, if the car is setup right, a FWD car will be able to flick the rear end entering a turn just like a RWD car, I know because my car is setup to do just that.
This is just ONE reason why RWD is the platform used for professional racing. Another is imagine trying to put down 800hp in a 1800lb race car exiting a turn with FWD, it just wont do it as well as RWD due to weight transfer and aerodynamics.
Now, your RWD is able to pre-drift a corner to hit it hot, and still be in control. Also, if entering a corner too hot in a FWD, you have to slam the brakes, and turn hard, and hope to god you dont slam sand. As the RWD in the same situation can simply nudge the clutch while still on the gas, and start a nice controlled slide. He will lose less speed than the FWD would, and keep out of the cat box.
This shows me you probably don't have much experience with car control. If you enter a corner to hot in any platform, you have to lift off, hit the brakes, get grip back in the front tires to steer THEN power out. In any platform, if you go in to hot and try to use power to correct, you'll find yourself losing more grip and under-steering even more.
AWD FTL.
The only win AWD has is on a straight line. Not very impressive if you ask me. AWD is not a forgiving platform at all. And talking about a hard car to control. I'd rather get around on my mountain bike than a damn AWD. At least I can make my mountain bike go exactly where I please.
AWD is generally terrible in a straight line. How many super fast 1/4 cars are AWD, not very many...If anything, AWD is the most forgiving platform. I've raced AWD cars before, on pavement and off-road, and they are probably the easiest to drive.
I just love it when I post faster times in my FWD stock motor car than RWD/AWD cars with over double the hp and similar or even more mods. Even on a road course, I was getting blown by STi's and 240's on the straights but as soon as the esses came, they couldn't pull away. I was already on there asses in the braking zone and they couldn't shake me on the turns lol.
just my .02
BUT, a FWD Can not setup for a hard corner by a slight drift. This is why you don't see FWD cars racing professionally<full track, not quarter mile>.
Stock vs. stock, you would probably have a better chance setting up a flick entering a corner in a RWD car BUT, it'll be difficult and chances are you'll over do it losing time and grip. All RWD and FWD cars from factory are designed to under-steer for safety reason so it is difficult to get a slight flick just right to enter a corner and power out. Now modified, if the car is setup right, a FWD car will be able to flick the rear end entering a turn just like a RWD car, I know because my car is setup to do just that.
This is just ONE reason why RWD is the platform used for professional racing. Another is imagine trying to put down 800hp in a 1800lb race car exiting a turn with FWD, it just wont do it as well as RWD due to weight transfer and aerodynamics.
Now, your RWD is able to pre-drift a corner to hit it hot, and still be in control. Also, if entering a corner too hot in a FWD, you have to slam the brakes, and turn hard, and hope to god you dont slam sand. As the RWD in the same situation can simply nudge the clutch while still on the gas, and start a nice controlled slide. He will lose less speed than the FWD would, and keep out of the cat box.
This shows me you probably don't have much experience with car control. If you enter a corner to hot in any platform, you have to lift off, hit the brakes, get grip back in the front tires to steer THEN power out. In any platform, if you go in to hot and try to use power to correct, you'll find yourself losing more grip and under-steering even more.
AWD FTL.
The only win AWD has is on a straight line. Not very impressive if you ask me. AWD is not a forgiving platform at all. And talking about a hard car to control. I'd rather get around on my mountain bike than a damn AWD. At least I can make my mountain bike go exactly where I please.
AWD is generally terrible in a straight line. How many super fast 1/4 cars are AWD, not very many...If anything, AWD is the most forgiving platform. I've raced AWD cars before, on pavement and off-road, and they are probably the easiest to drive.
I do realize there are other forms of racing other than Nascar. I'm not a Nascar fan. I guess I'll just take the dumbass award of the day for my previous comment, and ask where you are seeing FWD racing.
SCCA and NASA are major motorsports clubs that have very many FWD spec classes. Granted they are not Formula 1, Indy, or Nascar, they are still big clubs with very serious racing involved.
SCCA and NASA are major motorsports clubs that have very many FWD spec classes. Granted they are not Formula 1, Indy, or Nascar, they are still big clubs with very serious racing involved.
just my .02
#25
09-16-2009 | 05:02 PM
Cat Fuсker
Joined: Nov 1978
Posts: 7,033
From: The Moon
Haha, yeah, I was kind of arguing semantics there
Like I've implied, FWD does have its limitations. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that any FWD will be able to hang with something like this on an open track*:
<picture>
Mmmmmm.... Audi R10 TDI. My favorite Le Mans Prototype car of all time
*okay, that's kind of unfair. Most cars wouldn't be able to touch it... after all, it did win the 24 Hours of Le Mans every year from its introduction until it was replaced
Like I've implied, FWD does have its limitations. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that any FWD will be able to hang with something like this on an open track*:
<picture>
Mmmmmm.... Audi R10 TDI. My favorite Le Mans Prototype car of all time
*okay, that's kind of unfair. Most cars wouldn't be able to touch it... after all, it did win the 24 Hours of Le Mans every year from its introduction until it was replaced
Yer into speedbumps I see... I'd rather not discuss the consequences on THAT hitting a real car...
#26
09-17-2009 | 04:12 AM
Laced with Sarcasm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,280
I just love it when I post faster times in my FWD stock motor car than RWD/AWD cars with over double the hp and similar or even more mods. Even on a road course, I was getting blown by STi's and 240's on the straights but as soon as the esses came, they couldn't pull away. I was already on there asses in the braking zone and they couldn't shake me on the turns lol.
just my .02
just my .02
Although it's probbably the drivers that are horrible. It's like me having a raw time faster than a camaro ss... cause the driver was horrible.
#28
09-17-2009 | 06:19 AM
Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,802
Just to notch out driver error, here's results from this years SCCA AutoX Nationals event. These cars came in first place in their class under Street Touring category: factory motor, no internal motor mods, street tires, suspension mods, minor power mods, full interior, etc... The first is an '89 Civic SI in ST(Street Touring) class and the second is an '04 Evo in STU(Street Touring Ultra).
T 1 25 Bill Bounds 1989 Honda Civic Si Wht Toyo 62.503 61.157 60.830 120.058
[125] Atlanta, GA Atlanta Re 60.492 60.367 59.228
T 1 79 Thomas Kenna 2004 Mitsubishi Evo Red 60.277 59.979 59.634 120.522
[179] Irvine, CA Ciro Design, Dunlop, Mon Cal Club R 61.364 61.628 60.888
The best time the Civic put down was a 59.228 and the best time the Evo put down was a 59.634. FWD just beat out ALL other RWD and AWD cars in Street Touring category. Same class category so similar mods and these are the best drivers in the nation.
#29
09-17-2009 | 06:56 AM
Laced with Sarcasm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,280
That's great n' all, but I for one don't really consider AutoX a valid measurement tool. The courses are too tight, and the power mods to match the race ready suspension aren't reaching their full potential.
I'm not trying to take anything away from you as a driver, your car as a performer, or AutoX as a fun way to spend your weekends. But out on the big course, mod for mod, I just don't see the civic as the victor.
I'm not trying to take anything away from you as a driver, your car as a performer, or AutoX as a fun way to spend your weekends. But out on the big course, mod for mod, I just don't see the civic as the victor.
#30
09-17-2009 | 04:32 PM
Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,802
That's great n' all, but I for one don't really consider AutoX a valid measurement tool. The courses are too tight, and the power mods to match the race ready suspension aren't reaching their full potential.
I'm not trying to take anything away from you as a driver, your car as a performer, or AutoX as a fun way to spend your weekends. But out on the big course, mod for mod, I just don't see the civic as the victor.
I'm not trying to take anything away from you as a driver, your car as a performer, or AutoX as a fun way to spend your weekends. But out on the big course, mod for mod, I just don't see the civic as the victor.
Nevertheless, yes, mod for mod a civic is at a huge disadvantage but, the limiting factor is more power(for the straights on a road course) than being FWD. We all know a modded K series hatch can keep up with a modded STi, 240, what have you. We've all seen the youtube vids lol. With that, it'd be a good battle on a road course.
I'm not trying to nit pick or anything. Just trying to share my POV on where platforms stand from my personal experience. I just feel a lot of people put down FWD without actually seeing the fight it can put up against the "big guns".