the Mustang GT Deluxe has an MSRP of 25,860...

im not questioning the fact that there could be a 6.4L Challenger, but theyre not going to do that until the viper gets a kick in the pants...theyre not going to make two 500-ish horsepower cars...especially since one costs 85,000, and the other is *expected* to cost around 45,000 (for the 6.1L)...you have to admit that no way in hell would DCX offer a 500hp challenger for, say 65,000..when the viper only has 505 and is 85,000. once the viper changes to the alleged new platform, and gets the 8.4L engine, and a big jump in power (hopefully), i could see the challenger being intorduced with the 6.4L hemi, but if a 505hp viper costs 85,000 now, what can we expect the challenger to cost? say that the 6.1L "RT" does cost 45,000, and has 425hp (which we all know isnt a true measurement of the 6.1L) and the 392 only has 500hp...75 horsepower jump...equal to that of the current 85,000 viper...do you think that theyre going to price it "reasonably"? i dont...and its not a matter of being pessimistic...im realistic. and unless that 6.4L is a 5-6 thousand dollar upgrade at the most, its not going to be worth the price, since you can take a 6.1L Challenger and with a $2,000 bottle kit, you can safely have that same 500hp...i really dont care what they call the 6.1L Challenger..its the only one that we have seen, and your rumors of the 6.4L Challenger are, for now, just rumors...there is nothing to prove that they have any intention of putting that motor in anything, but youd think that they wouldnt bother to make it if they didnt have some plans for it...if you have some REAL proof of the 6.4L finding its way into anything soon, id be happy to read it...and some quote from a lineworker at allpar isnt proof...by the way, did you see jaon vines slamming the 'various srt forums', and their rampant rumors of production?

im not arguing that the srt-8 charger is nice, for a sedan...but its just plain too big,and thats why im not interested in them...also, the "charger" is nothing but a marketing campaign...its just a de-chromed 300C srt8...ive driven an srt-8 on a closed circuit, and they really s**t and get for what they are, but in the end, no matter how much work you do, they are still automatic-only pigs.

it seems that people of your age have this affinity for sedan performance cars, as the people whom i see defending the caliber, neon, and charger the hardest are your age...and i really dont see why...the sad reality is that if and when dcx releases the challenger..if it is priced as expected, at $45,000, i will probably get stuck with an evo...based simply on the fact that it is a proven engine, its fast, and it has heavy aftermarket support...and in comparing the 33k evo which is capable of 12s stock, and it very mod-accepting... to the challenger which is allegedly capable of 13 flat, with a relatively new transmission and engine, and a huge price tag, im not THAT hard up to drive a coupe.

and we dont need to discuss the viper, shy of using it for the premise that they wont build a rival to their "flagship performance car"...without beefing it up..as far as im concerned, they could quit making the viper...

 

Im not JUST an SRT guy. Im a moparhead through and through. However Do not forget why these cars are so affordable right now. PLATFORM SHARING. Not to mention the LX is derieved off old E class technology. Whenever you can use parts from someone else and share them within your own brand, your going to save money. Boring out the current 6.1 to 6.4 liters isnt going to cause the price to jump 15k dollars. Thats just plain stupid.

The Viper is going to be more powerful, make its power more efficently, and still be reasonably priced because its going to be on a SHARED PLATFORM with a projected annual production of 25 thousand units between the 3 vehicles its going to be riding on. Which is going to leave room for the 500hp Challenger to follow. and the 425hp Challenger will be capable of mid to low 12s stock, as the 425hp automatic 4300lb Chargers have seen 12.6 second ET's in stock form.

Look the GT500 is out now with a claimed 50hp less than the Ford GT which isnt going to be around for much longer(we all know the GT makes 550 WHP, but that doesnt change the fact its marketed at 550 crank hp). The Camaro LS7 will have the 505hp Z06 engine, by the time it comes to market, do you really expect the Z06 to be using the LS7? Hell no. the LS7 will be the base Corvettes motor, and an even MORE powerful engine is going to be in the Z06. Same goes with the Challenger/Viper.

I understand you're only going on facts which is fine.

here is an intresting article:

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. — Dodge will respond to the growing number of challengers to the omnipotence of its once-untouchable Viper with the help of American Specialty Cars, Inc. and McLaren Performance Technologies.

ASC and McLaren — a Michigan-based powertrain development specialist not to be confused with Team McLaren Mercedes in Formula One — showed a concept Viper, called the Diamondback, to highlight their capabilities at the 2006 North American International Auto Show. But Chrysler spokesman Dan Bodene declined to comment on the possibility of a version of the Diamondback going into limited production. Since its inception, Dodge has sold about 23,000 Vipers, Bodene said.

According to a DCX source, Viper will go on hiatus for model-year 2007. But the source also kept to the company line of silence as to why. To meet demand, Dodge plans to build a backlog of 2006 Vipers to keep dealers supplied with cars though next year. The issue is reportedly not the advanced airbag requirement that was set to derail Ferrari F430 sales before the federal government approved a waiver.

With no regular 2007 Vipers to maintain enthusiasts' interest, a special limited-edition model could help bridge the gap. The Diamondback wears ASC's OmniCarbon technology lightweight bodywork that shaves 85 pounds of mass from the Viper. A special clearcoat process leaves the bare carbon-fiber fabric visible in places, without suffering from the yellowing that usually occurs with exposure to sunlight, said ASC Vice Chairman Chris Theodore.

Theodore worked at Chrysler on the Viper program before leaving to midwife the Ford GT program, so he has strong personal contacts within the Viper team. ASC already supplies all of the bodywork that is unique to the Viper Coupe, such as the roof, rear fascia and rear deck, so there is an existing corporate relationship too.

Carbon fiber has been too costly for relatively affordable supercars like the Viper, but ASC's OmniCarbon technique eliminates the need to cure the panels in an autoclave, slashing cost by about two-thirds, Theodore said.

The Diamondback features a large central opening in the hood that exposes an array of 10 intake velocity stacks, harking back to the engines of the Can-Am sports car series. "But obviously that is not practical for production," Theodore said.

In recent spy photos, a Viper has been seen sporting a hood with two rows of holes that evoke those impractical intake stacks. The pumped-up V10 engine that lies beneath the concept car's stacks is rated at 615 horsepower, which combines with the trimmed weight for a predicted 3.5 second 0-60 time.

There was a time recently when 500 horsepower was considered nearly unthinkable, but since then enough cars have achieved that level that the Viper needs something more to be considered special, acknowledged John Fernandez, now director of motorsports operations for Chrysler, but who oversaw development of the second-generation Viper. While claiming no specific knowledge of the Viper team's activities, he observed that "Maybe that level is 600 horsepower now."

What This Means To You: By naming the Viper, you will still be able to win bar bets concerning which car is the fastest/most powerful/baddest…at least most of the time.



Autoweek - - A hidden gem tucked away in the basement at January’s Detroit auto show was the Diamondback Viper coupe, an American Specialty Cars concept featuring a 615-hp V10 tuned by McLaren Performance Technologies.

ASC broadly winked when asked if it planned to build the car, noting the company was already aware of potential problems with the concept’s 10 air intakes poking up through the lightweight carbon fiber hood (ASC also used carbon fiber for the roof, decklid and rocker panels, shaving 85 pounds off the concept’s curb weight).

It looks like they’ve tackled the intake issue—note the holes in this prototype’s hood, caught by one of our regular spy shooters, and by a reader in Idaho Springs, Colorado. We hear this killer Viper is already producing 650 hp, which ought to be good for 0 to 60 mph in 3.5 seconds—or less.

Our best guess is Dodge will use this ASC/McLaren project to bridge a 2007 model-year gap, during which Dodge reportedly plans no regular production Vipers.

Here is a spyshot of the 2008 viper powertrain test mule. Note the huge vents in the hood.

 

What was the the srt-10 viper pushing? A little over 500 hp right? So the diamondback viper is gonna be a monster at 650 hp. I hate those hood vents lol.

 

Vipers usually dyno around 460whp or so depending on the dyno. This one which IF rated at 650hp should put down 550+ to the rear wheel. To put that in comparsion a Z06 dynos roughly 450-460 whp.

Either way the Viper is going to swell in Horsepower within the next 2 years.

and Patrick here is some pretty good info on the sales of the Caliber:

The Daily Auto Insider, Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - - While it may be too early to call it a blockbuster like the Chrysler 300, since its February launch, the Caliber has climbed the sales charts, the story said. April sales for the Neon replacement reached 11,232 units. And orders are mounting — Dodge has 48,700 dealer orders for the Caliber, up from roughly 20,000 several weeks ago, a Chrysler spokesman said.

Among the reasons given for the Caliber's initial appeal are its distinctive style and features such as a refrigerated glove box, foldable seats, removable flashlight, lighted cup holders and fold-down rear speakers.

A base price that starts at $13,985 hasn't hurt, either, the story said. However, in the first 14 days of May, the Caliber's transaction price averaged $17,951, compared to $16,973 for models in the premium compact car segment, according to Power Information Network data cited by the News.

 

the diamondback...






its hot as hell, but ill have to see something like this on the dodge showroom before i can believe that its a production model...from what the ASC rep said, the McLaren viper is like the Saleen Mustang...but who knows if that person knew his *** from a hole in the ground.

for what its worth...i already have my own spy shots of the viper, but im afraid that i cannot post them on the forum...mine are MUCH closer up...and to post them would likely give away my "source"...i have an underhood shot..and the engine in the mule sure looks like the 8.3L V10...but even the engine is very plain looking...not dressed up...

for a challenger to run a stock 12.45...it would need PERFECT traction, and it would have to have zero drivetrain loss...using a calculator (take it as you will, but they are fairly accurate) with a weight of 4160lbs, which is stamped on the plate under the hood, it would have to have a WHP equal to the stock advertised BHP. ive seen several srt-8 cars run in person...and the best running one that ive seen is a local shop who has exhaust and intake, and its running 12.60s...

im not saying that jumping from the 6.1L to 6.4L is going to make the challenger jump 15k...the pricing tables from DCX show that it would almost have to be, unless they want to destroy the sales of the viper (which are bad enough to begin with)...you say that platform sharing keeps costs down, but thats no excuse, at all...what other cars use the mustang platform? in this country, none that i know of, yet they can put out a car capable of damn near 12s for 25-30 grand...yet chrysler cant? by that logic, the mustang cost should be through the roof...but its not. as much as i dont like ford, at least they know how to price an entry level performance car...which by todays standards, thats what the challenger is likely to be...

and like i said..the rich-mans-toy, 85,000 viper might as well not be in the picture...ford has been producing an "every-mans performance car" for over 40 years now...and chrysler cant seem to get it right, as they are pricing cars so much higher than the mustang.

so im a dodge fan, and i want to go fast...my options, honestly...are the srt-8, for 43,000...and with very minor mods, i can run mid 12s. for 43,000 i could get a terminator, swap the pulley, lose the cars, and tune it...and with a good set of tires, i could be well into the low 12s, if not high 11s, and the same should hold true for the GT500. so dodhe is going to release the challenger with the 3.5 and 5.7, and they are "to be similarly priced as the charger with the same engine"...so for 35,000 dollars...i can get a 345hp challenger....which MIGHT keep up with a GT...as it is 710 lbs heavier...(challenger curb of 4160...MTX GT is 3450)..i dont know that gearing and 45 horsepower will make up that weight difference...also, my source has hinted that the 5.7L will not be available with the 6 speed..only the 5 speed ATX...which will put it at an even bigger disadvantage...

you say that the camaro will have the LS7, and the corvette will have something better, but those are ALL assumptions. i just dont buy into assumptions. i am an accountant by trade, and that is a strictly fact-based field, and perhaps as a product of my environment, i only go on fact, or at least as much as i can. while it would be ideal for the viper to come out with a 700hp engine, and the challenger to have a 505hp engine, there is nothing but hopes and rumors to prove that, and all that does it get peoples hopes up. this isnt the 1960s/70s where the "they have a 426 hemi, so the highline performance car will have the 426 hemi" logic holds true...

lets not forget that the challenger concept doesnt have cats...it has flowmaster exhaust..and it has those ridiculous rims...performance cars shouldnt have 22 inch tires...caddys should. ive never seen a 22 inch drag radial, so those rims would be one option that i will be looking to drop. so if nothing else, we know that the production challenger will have see a real exhaust system (chrysler has stated that the production models will not have flows, and it has to have cats)...who knows what else will get the axe before production. interviews with jason vines have seen comments like 'the amount of carbon fiber may not see production, as well as the functional hood ducts'...

anjd as great as it is that the entry level car sells well...i couldnt care any less...the "RT" is a 17 second car..its slower than the SXT due to the AWD.

 

The Mustang rides on a derivitive of the LS Platform.

could you get proof of this talk of a 3.5 and 5.7 Challenger. I have heard the base engine in the Challenger is going to be the 6.1, with no SE model offered at all. Seeing as how the 3.5 is going to disappear just as quickly as the 6.1s are going to in the SRT's, and be replaced by a more powerful V6.

and im sorry your not intrested in the Caliber sales, if it wasnt for cars like the Caliber selling well, Dodge would be no where in the performance market.

 

ok, os it would be to ford what the LY is to DCX? so they have two cars...(dont know if merc has a car on that platform)...and the mustang is still only 23-40 grand (base model to gt500) not counting dealer markup...but trim line for trim line, the challenger will be hard pressed to keep up...and in reality, it will probably cost more than the mustang, trim line for trim line...

and i dont think that the sedan size of the charger would bother me ALL that much, if they offered a manual trans.

i will send you a PM about the other engine stuff.

 

Jesus thats a lot of typing, I see you two are having another one of your sparing matches over American muscle.

 

yah i was going to ask you for a PM or you could email me them @ moparhead5@aol.com either way im very intrigued to see some underhood shots of the car! If you look at the Autoweek pic, you can see the hood release has a lock on it!! lol

and its funny you should say base price is 23-40 on the stang. because thats excatly what the LX 300C prices started at 23k for a base model 300 to 40k for a 425hp SRT 300. Mercedes doesnt have a car riding on the LX right now, the last gen E Class shares its architecture with the LX along with the suspension components. The next gen LY platform should share more technology with the current E class and so on.

Finally some positive results of the merger.

 

another pm sent.